Oops

I know I know. Barack Obama is unelectable because he has a crazy preacher. We all know that never stops the GOP but that's not the issue. The world isn't fair. The playing field isn't level. Whatever. He'll need to get over it and take one for the team. Blah blah blah.

Problem is, some folks think he's being treated unfairly.

WHO? Two guesses.

Here's a hint. It's the Democratic base. The most loyal group of democrats by far.

See, McClatchy did some reportin and some folks, African-Americans in particular I guess, might not think all of this piling on Rev. Wright and guilt by association is fair. We don't see Hagee, Parsley, or Coe paraded around talking about hating Catholics, Gays, Arabs, or loving Nazis & dictators.

So what you say?! Too bad!

Well the problem we have is this.

If it looks like Obama has been pushed out over Rev. Wright even if he has the most delegates at the end, well, that most loyal demographic, the one that no Democrat could win the White House without, might just sit this one out.

"It would hurt me not to vote," said Charles Clark, an Indianapolis retiree. He's thinking about leaving the presidential box on his ballot blank this fall if Hillary Clinton is the Democrats' nominee.

"There was a heck of a push made so blacks could vote. I know that," he said. "But it would also be very unfair if they pushed Barack Obama to the side."

Well that's just one guy.

What do the experts say?

If Obama isn't the nominee, "there would be a significant number of African-Americans who would stay home. They're not voting for (presumptive Republican nominee) John McCain," predicted David Bositis, a senior analyst at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, which researches black voting trends.

Todd Shaw, a University of South Carolina political science professor, agreed, citing a groundswell of African-American disenchantment with both Bill and Hillary Clinton. They're particularly annoyed by Bill Clinton's performance during the South Carolina primary and by Clinton supporter James Carville's description of New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, a Latino, as "Judas" for endorsing Obama over Hillary Clinton.

"The comment plays very badly with African-Americans and Latinos," Shaw said. "They remind them of 'Look what we've done for you; you should stay in line.' That doesn't sit well with voters of color. They view it as Northern machine politics or Old South boss politics."

Hunter Bacot, an associate professor of political science at Elon University in North Carolina, saw another piece of political history haunting black Obama backers.

"There's a sentiment among blacks that they've been taken for granted by the Democratic Party," Bacot said. "If Obama loses, it's as though their candidate's victory was overturned."

Hm.

What does the DNC say?

Democratic National Committee officials acknowledge that there could be some falloff of African-American voters if Obama isn't the nominee. Still, Karen Finney, a DNC spokeswoman, said the party expects African-Americans -- frustrated by the war in Iraq, the sagging economy and high gasoline prices -- to go to the polls in their usual numbers when they compare whomever the Democratic nominee is with McCain.

Oops. See comment above about taking African-American voters for granted.

Not smart.

Now if the delegate leader at the end of this thing is the nominee it seems to me that, though there might be some hurt feelings, and some voters might stay home, there shouldn't be a big enough effect to cost Democrats the White House.

But if the opposite happens. If the game was played straight and the pledged delegate leader isn't the nominee. There's going to be hell to pay. Hell with a capital H and that rhymes with McCain as President.



Display:


Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

Black people are too intelligent to allow hard feelings and frustrations could their judgment as to what to do in November.


by alvic63 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:28:59 PM EST

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Seems to me it could be construed as a calculated choice showing the Democratic party not to take African-Americans for granted.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:30:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

I pray you are right.  Anecdotally, my black family and friends will not accept any outcome in the primaries other than Obama's victory.  PERIOD.  They will view his loss as a theft of their historic opportunity and a slap in the face.  

My biggest fear is the the supers will throw their support to this now mortally wounded candidate in order to forestall open revolution within the party, thus dooming our chances for the WH in November.  We have downticket races to consider, they will say, and we need the AA community to turn out so we don't lose Congress or statehouses also.

BTW, I am the sole member of my immediate or extended family supporting Clinton, and I have relatives that actually don't speak to me over this issue.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:34:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 4)

mortally wounded....?

I am watching an interview with him and he seems perfectly healthy....


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

It's only doom if you keep crying that it's doom. McCain is a paper tiger.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Yes, McCain is weak.  However, the Democratic party has not and cannot win without the reliable monolith that is the black vote.  There just aren't enough of the rest of you (actual liberal white people) to make up for the loss.

Actually I shouldn't say you, since I am only half black.  I never know which line I'm supposed to be standing in...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

You're trying to do away with the social construct that is "race"??

Yep. McCain is very weak and can be beaten easily if the young folk, African-Americans, and liberals & libertarianish waffly Rep/Dems come out strong against him.

I'm black so I'm not the "you" you were referring to.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:22:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Okay, so isn't the solution to put him on her ticket?


by handsomegent on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:21:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Sort of a back of the bus deal? Don't think that will solve it and would seem quite insulting actually. If even 10% sit at home swing states are McCains.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:32:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

yeah and white people are too intelligent to allow hard feelings and frustrations over Bitter comment or silly former reverends to effect their judment too.  Oh thats right Hillary number 1 argument is that voters are outraged and frustrated over barack bitter comments so they voted based on that  


John McCain's pick-up line is, 'Did you know that 150 is the new 130?'"
by wellinformed on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

I think the constant harping on how black people will stay home if Obama isn't the nominee is an exercise in reverse racism - kind of like saying "You know those angry black people and their inability to think past their own rage"  Totally insulting and if I were a black person I would be pissed off.


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:30:59 PM EST

Re: Oops (none / 0)

You mean the black people in the article who are saying they'll stay home should be pissed off?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:31:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

So that is what, a handful of black people?  I think the constant reminder that black people won't vote is totally insulting to the intellect of black people in general.  It's a stereotypical dog whistle to try and make white people nervous and what those scary angry black folk might do if they don't get their way.  It's just wrong, wrong, wrong.


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

how is that any different then women posters here saying

women will stay home if Hillary is not the nominee?
how is that different?


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:35:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

There is a ting of racial undertones to the threat over black voters.  I just find it insulting to black voters to suggest they can't control their own anger enough that they will just pass up an opportunity to keep a Republican out of the White House for spite.  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I find the exact same thing every time a female poster says women won't take his we are 50% of the population.

so once again I ask, how is it different?


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:55:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

The difference to the sd's is that Obama is polling 92% of AA's while Clinton isn't polling 92% of white women. That's why the sd's are TERRIFIED of Clinton's winning but they're too chicken to actually admit it.


by handsomegent on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

It's not.

Next strawman question.


by Trickster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Actually Clinton appears to be polling at about 50-60% rather than 90% in a hypothetical GE matchup against McCain. And that's without any perceived pushing out of Obama.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:38:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

What is being said here (and I think you know this) is that it will look like discrimination if he is the leader in delegates and every other criteria and then is pushed aside for a white person. That's what we're talking about. It's about fairness and honesty.


by Becky G on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

How many times have you heard that the superdelegates have to make a decision based on who is more electible.  Even the great Howard Dean says that.  So what if they make the determination that it isn't Obama?  Should they throw the nomination to him to keep black people from getting angry even if they feel he will get beaten in the GE?  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:54:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

If black people are told that the winner of the election process is less electible (and lets be honest here, the argument is that he's less electible because he's black), then how do you think they are going to take that?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

The argument is NOT that he is less electible because he is black!  What a bunch of nonsense.  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.50 / 2)

Absolutely.  How many votes lost for gender?  Move beyond that argument.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I think that is what it boils down to.  

If you say he can't be elected because of his ties to Rev. Wright, and blacks see Rev. Wright as a part of the black community, then you are telling them he can't be elected because he's black.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

Good grief.  IMO his problem isn't his ties to Rev. Wright.  It is how he handled his ties to Rev. Wright.  Look, for me, if he had just come out and admitted the whole thing from the get go instead of saying "I never heard him say such things" and "my church isn't particularly controversial" then this would have gone a long way to make him look less like he was trying to skate by.  Once it all came out that he wasn't exactly open.. this is what hurt him.  I have never once felt Obama agrees with some of Rev. Wright's more controversial opinions.  I do feel he was trying to play cute when the whole thing came out and he has wasted two months two stepping around it instead of just saying "yeah I heard him say some pretty inflammatory stuff and I didn't like it but so what?"  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

That's just it... Trinity isn't particularly controversial but you are telling the black community that it is.

And until Wright came out this week took what had been scattered nutty statements made over years, and consensed and reinforced them into a 30 min press conference, he wasn't that controversial either.  

That's why there was a difference in the way Obama handled the two situations, not because he was trying to play cute.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

Even people from the black community are saying Rev. Wright is out there.  I am not saying he should have thrown him under the bus from the beginnning.. in fact I think he could have cut this all off at the pass by saying what I suggested.  He perceived ducking and dodging is what has stirred all this crap up.  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

How about Trinity?



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Were McCain and Clinton required to handle their ties to Parsley and Coe?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

That is such horseshit.  And insulting horseshit.


by Trickster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Actually saying Obama is unelectable because of Wright is horseshit. Insulting horseshit.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I heard it as many times as the Clinton campaign has told me.  I've lost count


by reggie23 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.50 / 2)

The only core demographic in the Dem party Barack is carrying  is the AA vote.  He's not carrying the "senior" vote; he's not carrying the "women" vote; he's not carrying the "blue collar" vote.  How does he become the Dem nominee without the Dems?  


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

By getting more delegates.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

Understand you point.  Seems to me the argument has been that if the nomination is "taken away" from Obama by Supers, there would be hard feelings by AA.  But it is a delegate race.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:06:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

If Hillary legitimately closes the gap to fewer than 30 delegates, and THEN the SDs move to her, I don't think there will be a problem.  If the gap is 100+ and SDs still somehow give it to her (unlikely), there will be a HUGE problem.  I don't know that these two points are that debatable, but I could be wrong.  

The gray area is what if the gap is 30-100?  What happens then?  No one knows.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

And how are you figuring FL and MI into your math?
Seems to me, with FL and MI, it's a nomination for Hillary.

Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

we will figure it in once the DNC says to figure them in.

until why would we? the DNC doesn't recognize those votes.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

You mean if you give Obama a zero in MI? Yeah. That would seem unfair.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

  1.  people voted.
  2.  it needs to be resolved before Denver or it can be deemed an unfair nomination.
  3.  Barack took his name off the ballot.  Dumb political ploy.

Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

  1. Yep and some would have voted for Obama.
  2. I'm sure it will as McAuliffe said this ends in June.
  3. So did my man Edwards in 2008. So did Gore and Bradley in 2000 because MI violated DNC rules. Dumb political ploy then? Participation = being on the ballot.

My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

Voters who "would have" voted for Obama but didn't vote shoudl be counted?  Whaaa?


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

We have exit polls showing the breakdown and it shows that a substantial number of voters who voted either for Hillary Clinton or Uncommitted would have voted for Obama had his name been on the ballot. But like he pledged to do, he didn't participate. Like Gore and Bradley.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

If Michigan is split fairly (55-45?) and both states are penalized by 1/2 their total delegates (which is what the rules say), and that gets Hillary to within 30 at the end of all this, all bets are off.  I would be disappointed if she then won, but I wouldn't be crushed.

If she's still behind by 30+ and gets the nomination anyway, I will be pissed.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:22:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Seems arbitrary. Why 30?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

It is arbitrary.  :-)

Seemed like a good number at the time.  I think that number is different for everyone.  For some people it's 100.  For some it's 50.  For some it is 1.  For me it's roughly 30.  20 would be 1% of the total needed, so maybe that is a better number?  I mean, if the candidates are within 1% of another at the end, it's a virtual tie.  At that point, whatever happens happens.  

100 would be 5% which is obviously a big gap, despite some Hillary supporters trying to say it isn't.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

If she closes the gap by that much then yes I think it would be fairly easy for her to get the nomination without a huge fallout.  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I know I know HRC supporters hate the word, but its basically impossible at this point.

even when Hillary won by 10% she netted 10 delegates, that dropped his lead to 140.

there aren't enough states with enough delegates where she can get big enough margins to get even under 100.


Congratulations to Barack Obama, the presumptive Presumptive Democratic Nominee
by TruthMatters on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

It is and if the only reason the supers go her way after he wins more delegates is because of Wright then it'll be a problem. Certainly that's her argument to the supers.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:38:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

How insulted are you when it is applied to women supporting Hillary...?  I have heard the same argument.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:34:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Uh, women are not supporting Hillary by 90%.  When that happens, we can talk about "reverse sexism."


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:35:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

What's the % where it becomes an "ism"?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Who was it that said on CNN the other day "You can't get 90% of Americans to agree that the sun is hot."  There is something else going on there besides policy positions.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:47:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

What % does it take to become an "ism"? And who the fuck said that on CNN?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

Maybe it was Flat-Earth Day?

And the % becomes an ism whenever it starts to help an argument that is pro-Hillary.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 2)

I would never use the term "reverse racism" period...  It is a Right-wing term to lend victimhood to white people who felt oppressed by affirmative action.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

That's why I put it in quotes...


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I don't know what else to call it.  What is a better way to describe trying to use racial stereotypes to your own advantage?  Like I said, I detect a tone of "you know we are scary when we are mad" coming from people who are saying black people will behave irrationally if Obama isn't the nominee.  I have even heard little things dropped here and there about rioting in Denver at the convention.   What could be the intended response to those type of comments except to make white people nervous about what black people might do if things don't go the way they want them too?  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

Former Gov. Wilder, VA, flatly said that on Face the Nation.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Sorry, but as someone here pointed out, I am a product of Liberal education....

Racism is not just using race to your advantage... it is a tool of oppression that denies people rights using power to do so..  In order to do this, you need to have broad spectrum power to begin with.  Minorities in this country have not achieved the power necessary to be racists... therefore, reverse racism is simply not possible.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:02:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Rioting? You mean marching perhaps.

It's quite rational to stay at home if Obama is pushed out despite having a lead in delegates.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

Do you refer to "pledged" delegates or total delegate count of at least 2024 (or 2208 depending on FL and MI)?


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:08:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Not really up to me. It's all about what looks fair.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:19:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

So is your point that the pledged delegate leader may not be the overall delegate leader and that would be unfair?


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:26:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

My point is that if it appears unfair it's a problem. For example, if a bunch of supers said "I was going to go with Obama but Clinton convinced me that Rev. Wright was too much of a problem". That'd seem unfair.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

So that's the crux of the problem.  It's unfair that Wright is tied to the hip of Barack which may cost him the nomination?


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Isn't the problem clear from the article? White candidates are not unelectable because of their crazy pastors. If Obama is deemed unelectable because of his and it appears that the nomination is taken away from him despite him winning the pledged delegates then it'll be a problem.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

But how many other candidates sat in the pew for 20 years.  That's the issue; not all the crazies but what is the relationship to the crazies?  It's not race unless you want it to be.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Clinton has been in a sex segregated cell of The Family for 15+ years. When is she called to account for that?


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

How about "racism"?  "Reverse racism" is a stupid term.  If it's racist, it's racist.  Black people can be racist, too.  It's not a word that means "When white people view black people as inferior because of their race."  It means "When PEOPLE view other PEOPLE as inferior because of their race."  

I hate the term "reverse racism," if you couldn't already tell.  :-)


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Ok, reverse racism is not appropriate.  How about playing into stupid people's racist fears that black people are too violent and/or stupid to control their actions and anger and they will do stupid stuff if they don't get their way?  That is very upsetting to me for personal reasons and it doesn't do anything to help the image of black America in general.


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I hope no one is making that argument.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I feel they are indirectly making the argument by implying that black people will stay home in November in protest if Obama is not the nominee.  As if black people are unable to be rational about the future of this country and can't help but be too angry to actually keep a Republican from screwing us for at least the next 4 years.


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

First of all, I don't think Hillary is going to win the nomination, so it may be a moot point.  

Second, if she does win it, I think most African Americans (and Obama supporters in general) will come around and vote for her.  

Third, the argument has been made that women, or seniors won't vote for Obama because they would be too bitter and angry if Hillary lost.  I don't buy that for a second.  I DO however, think that more Hillary supporters won't vote for him because they are closer to McCain on many issues.  Hillary is center-left on everything but health care.  For many Hillary supporters, McCain makes more sense.

I happen to think McCain is a terrible human being after hearing about his affair, his dumping of his first wife, and calling his second wife a "C#@t" in public.  So I think a vote for McCain is a vote for a bastard.  But I think he is much closer to many HRC supporters' positions than we often talk about.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:31:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Strikes are quite rational.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Yeah, they're basically analogous to the "I can has woman preznit" crowd.  Unfortunately, there may be a lot of those people...


"I'll bite your legs off!" -- HRC 2008!
by username3 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:45:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Not "if Obama is the nominee". It's if Obama is the leader in delegates and isn't the nominee. That would look like exactly what it is. Please don't try to make blacks sound petty.


by Becky G on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

If Obama leads in the metrics he is leading in currently and does not get the nomination, I do not think it will only be black people who are upset at the situation....


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:04:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.50 / 2)

It seems to me the Democrats face a conundrum.  Polls have consistently shown supports for each candidate will protest the nomination of the Dem candidate who is not their choice.  They will demonstrate this protest in November by either sitting out the Pres GE or voting form McSame.  What I find striking is that there are more Hillary supporters who will protest in November than Barack supportters who will do the same.  The reality is, those are numbers that need to be recokoned with.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:46:04 PM EST

Re: Oops (2.00 / 2)

Don't count me among them.  I will hold my nose and vote for Obama if I must, but I actually fear him.  I have a healthy, consuming and longstanding mistrust of messianic figures in any setting.  At worst, Obama strikes me as Elmer Gantry, wooing the masses with pretty words and empty rhetoric and nothing to back it up.  At best, he is a naif with big dreams that means well, but is clueless about how to pull the levers of power in Washington to make it all work properly.

I suspect that I am not alone in my credulousness, but it won't send me into the arms of McSame.


No politician ever lost an election because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public. - PT Barnum, paraphrased...
by jarhead5536 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:50:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Messianic says me not we. Messianic says I not you. He constantly says he can't do it for you. You have to do it for yourselves. That's not messianic.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I completely agree with you. One fear that I have about all the young voters he is bringing into the party is that they will become disillusioned with him (and the party and politics) after he is elected.  He talks a big game, making big promises, and I fear that his inability to deliver will hurt him in the long run.


Atdleft's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

He doesn't say I. He says we. It works both ways luckily!


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

No conundrum. Leader in delegates wins. That's fair and easily explainable.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

The conundrum is will the nomination losers' supporters come out in Nomvember for the nomination winner?


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:12:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

If it appears to be a fair decision there would be no reason not to.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:23:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

All I'm hearing is "if Barack isn't the nominee, it's not fair".  "Wright shouldn't count."  "Supers shouldn't count."  "FL and MI shouldn't count."  That's your argument.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Well then that sounds like a personal problem. Others understand what I'm saying perfectly.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:36:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

I'm not taking this personally.  I hope you're not either.  But reading your comments makes it clear your intent.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Again. The post is quite clear as is the article.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

The difference is that Hillary supporters will have no basis for their outrage other than "we don't like that our candidate lost."  Obama supporters would have outrage based on "our candidate won the metric we were told mattered, and yet he was somehow denied the nomination anyway."  There is a big difference there.

If Hillary wins more delegates and is passed over, the same problem applies in the reverse.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

Fair.  But what about FL and MI, to be fair?


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:27:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What metric? (none / 0)

And who told you it mattered?

According to the rules and according to history, the only metric that really matters is 50% +1 on the Convention floor.  If you were counting on something else, don't blame me.


by Trickster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What metric? (none / 0)

Well, the delegate count is all that matters.  And if superdelegates change their mind at the last second to swing to Hillary, it will be perceived as a theft.  

I don't see this going to the convention floor though.  Once Obama is at 2025, the calls for her to stop campaigning will be deafening.


by ProgressiveDL on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:37:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What metric? (1.00 / 1)

It matters because we have a 50 state primary with only 48 states being counted.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's because (2.00 / 1)

only 48 states followed the rules.


by Angry White Democrat on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:47:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Once again, the Obama argument for the last three days is that if we deny Obama the nomination, all the blacks will never vote Democrat again, and how this is a "historic opportunity" that we are denying them.

Let us remind them all of their opponent in this race. Is this not a historic opportunity for her? Does a historic moment for women worldwide not matter as much as a historic moment for African-Americans?


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 06:58:52 PM EST

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

But of course she's losing and will likely have less delegates. Different story altogether.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

I retired as a hospital recruiter and I would not hire Obama over Hillary.  The number one reason would be the lack of experience.  Debates, resumes and policy papers are the equivalent to a job interview.  Hiring someone without the proper background and experience is merely setting them up for failure which is not only unfair to the "employer" but to the "employee" as well.  Sen. Obama is not seasoned as yet.  His experience is limited.  I chose Hillary over Obama for just those reasons and it has nothing to do with race.  His qualifications and experience will come in time but the job that will be awaiting the winner in January will be overwhelming. Just as words count so does experience.    


by Pat J on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:04:38 PM EST

Re: Oops (2.00 / 1)

He has more legislative experience than her and as we've seen she puffs up her resume. So you'd end up firing her after you learned that she lied about her job experience.

But that's not the point is it? This is a race for delegates. The only wound suffered by Obama is Rev. Wright. Despite that he's going to get more delegates .


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:07:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (1.00 / 1)

Actuall, he's been wounded by his own missteps; i.e. Bitter-gate.


Sen. Obama: I'm watching. I'm listening. I vote.
by ChitownDenny on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:10:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Bitter didn't hurt him. Polls showed that. And it's bad everyone was dishonest and pretended like they'd never heard of single-issue voters before. Karma man karma.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Making sure (none / 0)

I just want to make sure I understand your premise:

Supporting Hillary Clinton is the same as disregarding the African American vote, because of Jeremiah Wright?


by bobbank on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:16:33 PM EST

Re: Making sure (none / 0)

Bzzzz. Try again. It's actually really easy. You're complicating it needlessly.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Making sure (none / 0)

I'm impressed that I could "complicate" an entire diary by distilling it into a mere sentence.

Thanks for clarifying.


by bobbank on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Making sure (none / 0)

You didn't distill it correctly.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:51:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would caution the diarist that (2.00 / 2)

when someone wins by threatening others, they usually end up by setting back their overall cause.   In this case, if blacks force the Democratic party to nominate Obama by threatening to walk out or worse, and he then loses in the General Election, they will reduce their chances of having an African-American be nominated in future elections.   If they succeed in nominating Obama and he wins the Presidency by threatening the larger American public, then yes he will be President but it there will be a cost.  

Will you win the battle and lose the war?  


by miker2008 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:27:39 PM EST

Re: I would caution the diarist that (none / 0)

Yes that is what I have been trying to say but you said it much more eloquently.  Threats and the use of people's fears about a certain race are bad, bad ju ju.  


by JustJennifer on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:32:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would caution the diarist that (none / 0)

But how is that different from white working class women saying that if the Democrats nominate Obama over Clinton they will vote Republican for the first time or stay home because their dream of getting a woman President was taken away from an "unqualified upstart."


by elrod on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:27:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's mostly the same, but there is (none / 0)

one subtle difference:  

The "older white woman" demographic -- which I assume is the one that we're taking as the analogous group -- is not seen as a unified voting block in American society.   So, for better or worse, they aren't particularly threatening.  Maybe they should be, and maybe they will end up wrecking the general election for Dems if Obama is nominated ... but you don't see any of them coming on MSM punditry shows and making that threat on behalf of their demographic.  

The youth + African-American coalition has a history of causing embarassment for Democrats (Chicago 1968) and so is a scarier threat.   AND you have seen leaders making the threat on behalf of black/youth voters.


by miker2008 on Thu May 01, 2008 at 09:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would caution the diarist that (none / 0)

Blacks aren't about to "force" the Democratic party to nominate Obama. Obama is winning the primary. And there is no doubt that he will finish the process with the most elected delegates.


by Angry White Democrat on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:38:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I would caution the diarist that (2.00 / 1)

Force? Obama wasn't selected by the DNC. He won a bunch of states and delegates. There's no affirmative-action going on here.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you want me to take you seriously (2.00 / 1)

You're going to have to find a different approach.  

Threats don't play with me.  Make it a threat and the conversation is over.


by Trickster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:28:01 PM EST

Re: If you want me to take you seriously (none / 0)

Me? I'm just reporting on a story. Ignore it if you want.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 07:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Riiiiight (none / 0)

n/t


by Trickster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:50:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Riiiiight (none / 0)

It's true. I work for McClatchy. You caught me!


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 08:52:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Riiiiight (none / 0)

Listen, I apologize for the sarcasm.  In reality, we're on opposite sides of something we both feel strongly about, but in the long run I hope we will be allies on other issues.

So when I offer constructive advice, I'm really sincere.  And I happen to have some pretty good professional bona fides on the subject of persuasive communication.  So take it as you will, but for my money anything that comes off as a threat is going to boomerang on you 9 times out of 10.  People just get their back up when they're threatened, and they won't listen to you.


by Trickster on Thu May 01, 2008 at 09:56:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Riiiiight (none / 0)

Well that's for the sincere comment and I understand what you're saying. My point was that I was relaying exactly what was being said by the people in the article. I meant it as a wake up call not a threat.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Thu May 01, 2008 at 10:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oops (none / 0)

Fine so they'll get McCain in the white house. He'll take care of them. And during the campaign is Obama going to sulk in his tent in this scenario. When I read this sort of 8th grade reasoning I wonder if the writers are 8th graders or maybe 12th graders. It demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how the real world works.    


by ottovbvs on Thu May 01,